Comment Trail:
@ Bob's
@ Buj (continues)
Here, too
@ Solomonia
@ Saudi Jeans
___________
Update: My walk in the virtual Arab street has been interrupted by Buj. This the comment that was the last straw for the blogger:
-
Dubai Jazz, pronounces a nice principle:
"...it's the job of intelligent people to try to find common grounds and reduce the tone of hatred. "
and here Dubai Jazz's way of living up to it::
"Sounds like we’ve found something to piss off the Zionist hoodlums real bad. :)"
I wonder, what may we deduce from this strange dissonance between a fine ethical sentiment followed up immediately by aggressive animus about Arab leaders when they speak of peace? - A simple juxtaposition between a noble principle and bad-faith practice is interpreted as an insult, punishable by banning. No attempt is made by the blogger to take himself and his comrades to task for the inherent contradiction in the example I pointed to.
- No self-criticism, no acceptance of responsibility or no admission of ill-will.
- This comes not from thoughtful engagement with facts, arguments or learning. Where do you get to be so hermetically isolated from common sense and authoritative knowledge? Where is this deep contempt acquired?
- Perhaps this is a clue?
posted by The Contentious Centrist @ Monday, September 28, 2009
14 comments
14 Comments:
I hadn't the time to follow all those threads but the Jewish Virtual Library would do well to edit itself now and again. You use them to cite various crimes against Middle Eastern Jews over the centuries which is fair enough. But the contention that the Ottoman Empire was anti-Jewish is belied by the significant rise in the Jewish population during the Turkish occupation of Palestine:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html
No one is suggesting that Jews enjoyed equality in the Ottoman Empire but there were many strata of classes in that society ( a feature common to all imperial empires) and most indigenous Muslims certainly were also lower on the totem pole than the ruling Turks, hence the fervour with which they fought the Turks during WW1.
Omar has made two new friends, here:
http://bujassem.blogspot.com/2009/09/cartoon-of-day.html?showComment=1254224463516#c3577260547064943381
The so-called "Marxist" who is prepared to see Israeli Jews massacred and driven from their homes by the millions, meets two Arab reactionaries exhilarated by a Holocaust-denying cartoonist, and wonder of wonders, they all get along.
And "--thus we have the book-burners of both left and right joined in common cause."
"...But the contention that the Ottoman Empire was anti-Jewish is belied by the significant rise in the Jewish population during the Turkish occupation of Palestine..."
The population of Arabs in Israel has increased more than tenfold since 1948. Between 1967 and 1993, under Israeli rule, the population of the Gaza Strip more than tripled. And Arab socio-economic status advanced very considerably during these periods in both places.
From this we must conclude, according to Omar's logic, that living as Israelis or under Israeli rule has been beneficial to Arabs in some important respects. Certainly many Israeli Arabs recognize this to be so, and resist very strongly the proposal made by Avigdor Lieberman that territories where they reside in Israel be transferred to Palestinian sovereignty.
Actually, Migreli, the rise in Jewish population during the Ottoman Empire was largely a result of immigration. Would a virulently anti-Semitic
( as Zionists contend) regime allow Jews into their territory in the first place?
As for the Arab population in Gaza? Israel has certainly done it's best to reduce their numbers and, given the witholding of taxes that followed the election of Hamas, and the devestation inflicted on the area since, the
suggestion that Gazans have benefitted from Israeli rule ( it has always been characterised by it's poverty)is absurd.
CC, not sure where I ever indicated
I'm "...prepared to see Israeli Jews massacred and driven from their homes by the millions, ..." but your response is encouraging. Incidentally the Latuff cartoon is not ,in and of itself, Holocaust- denying but a fairly accurate summation of Palestinian suffering.
"CC, not sure where I ever indicated
I'm "...prepared to see Israeli Jews massacred and driven from their homes by the millions, ..."
It is the only logical conclusion to the vision you offered for the I/P conflict:
"As for the vision of what should exist: a shared homeland for both people with a majority Palestinian govt reflecting the real demographic make-up of the area's population and a return of property to those Palestinian families who lost theirs during the creation of Israel." (Omar)"
http://contentious-centrist.blogspot.com/2009/08/i-found-this-blog-calling-itself.html
If you did not mean it, then do explain how your vision can be implemented without "Israeli Jews massacred and driven from their homes by the millions".
_________
As for
"Incidentally the Latuff cartoon is not ,in and of itself, Holocaust- denying but a fairly accurate summation of Palestinian suffering."
I'm sure you wouldn't also disagree with caricatures published in Der Sturmer. After all, you see Jewish global conspiracies everywhere and anywhere, even in my humble blog:
"I've tangled with The Contentious Centrist and her cohorts on the subject of Palestine. She often uses "factual" ,pro-Zionist sources to bolster her arguments so there's no reason why
those on the anti-Zionist side can't use the same techniques... [-]
You need to brush up a bit more on your facts and history as we all know how well-funded and organized
the pro-Zionists are.Many are professional propagandis "
http://bujassem.blogspot.com/2009/09/cartoon-of-day.html?showComment=1254255232818#c8303563138985925945
If "Israel has certainly done it's best to reduce their numbers.."
Then its best seems to have been pretty incompetent, wouldn't you say so?
Here is something to chew on when you make this kind of ourtlandish accusation:
"For my own part, I’ll add a question as to whether the ridiculousness of the idea that Israel deliberately targeted civilians - as opposed to not having taken adequate care to protect them - has been adequately noted. Even the Palestinian Center for Human Rights only puts the total number of fatal casualties at 1,284. Pretty bad going when we note that the population of Gaza is 1.5 million. Think of how much better those dumb Jews ought to have been able to do when one considers the time and means to do some serious killing that they had at their disposal."
http://blog.z-word.com/2009/09/gaza-landau-on-goldstone/
Noga: Cast Lead was not the first IDF operation in Gaza as you well know. An interesting chart here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Israelis_killed_by_Palestinians_in_Israel_and_Palestinians_killed_by_Israelis_in_Gaza_-_2008_prior_to_Gaza_War.png
Guns and bombs(especially banned ones) aren't the only way to reduce numbers , either. Expulsions, blockades,razing of houses and apartment blocks, mass arrests, etc are all tactics that Israel has used over the decades
to make life in the Occupied Territories as difficult as possible and encourage Palestinians to leave. I suspect that had they not been under scrutiny the IDF would have raised the bodycount considerably higher during Cast Lead.
Also, calling attention to pro-Zionists being organised and well- funded does not amount to being a conspiracy theorist. Your "humble blog" does point to how deeply Zionist propaganda is ingrained in mainstream Jewish society. You point the finger at Arabs as being immersed in a similar sort of fanaticism. That you can come to no other conclusion than "Israeli Jews massacred and driven from their homes by the millions" when it comes to sharing Palestine merely confirms my point.
"...the suggestion that Gazans have benefitted from Israeli rule ( it has always been characterised by it's poverty)is absurd..."
Nonsense.
When Israel captured the Gaza strip and the West Bank in 1967 the average income was less than $500 a year, and life expectancy not much above 45 years. When Israel left 25 years later, earnings had risen to more than $2300 per annum per person, people were living to the age of 73 and there were more than half a dozen universities where before there were none. The regression in socio-economic conditions that occurred since then is entirely the result of the policies and actions of the PLO and Hamas regimes.
In Israel itself, the standard of living and quality of life of Israeli Arabs continues to rise.
"...Would a virulently anti-Semitic (as Zionists contend) regime allow Jews into their territory in the first place? ..."
Ottoman Palestine was a malaria-ridden, desolate and impoverished backwater. The Turks neither encouraged nor prevented Jewish migration, as the territory was unappealing and sparsely populated. As in all Moslem states, Jewish Ottoman subjects were dhimmis, and their inferior legal status was strictly enforced by the authorities. I would not use the term virulent to describe Ottoman anti-Semitism, but that they were strongly Islamo-supremacist in their outlook is indisputable.
CC- I admire your stamina! -b
You're fudging the facts, Migreli( and some citations to back up your figures would be useful). Much of the develpoment in Gaza was down to the presence of UNRWA from 1950 onwards and , since 1967, also the International Red Cross and increased foreign aid.
It's true that Gaza refugees found low wage employment in Israel but this was largely the only option available to them as a result of the decimation of the agricultural sector due to the massive increase in population as a result of Israeli-induced displacement and another significant factor:
"In 1967, Israel declared all water resources in the Territories to be state owned and under the jurisdiction of the military. Strict quotas were placed on Palestinian consumption. To preserve Gaza's aquifer under the occupation, Military Order 158 (which applied only to the Arab population of Gaza, and not to Israeli settlers) prohibited the drilling of new wells or the rehabilitation of existing wells for any purpose without a permit." (Kelly/Dixon "Enviromental Scarcity and Violent Conflict:The Case of Gaza",1995)
The spiral of poverty as a result of competition for scarce resources ( due to the vast population increase mentioned above ) and Israeli restrictions is a major reason for the Gaza Strip's ongoing problems.
As for Ottoman Palestine being a "backwater" it certainly wasn't paradise for non-Turks but:
" The 19th century saw the weakening of the Ottoman Empire and increasing power of religious institutions, settlers, and merchants. The influx of foreigners brought a modernizing trend that included the development of a postal system and the use of stagecoaches, carriages, carts, and wheelbarrows. The oil lantern was also introduced. By the middle of the 19th century there was a road from Jaffa to Jerusalem, while a railroad was completed in 1892."
http://www.edukits.ca/diversity/middle_east/student/palestine_under.html
Didn't have time to respond yesterday Migreli but the reason Israeli Arabs are hesitant about Lieberman's plan is that they are keenly aware of the destruction wrought by the IDF on territories that are under Palestinian control.
Fairly obvious,really.
"...You're fudging the facts..."
The statistics I quote are well known. In 1967 the population of the Gaza Strip was about 350000. In 1993 it was close to a a million. Today it is 1.6 million. The Arab population of East Jerusalem in 1967 was 60000. Today it is over 275000. Similar increases occurred in the population of the West Bank. In Israel, after the 1948 war, the Arab population was about 160000. Today it is about 1.4 million.
"...the decimation of the agricultural sector due to the massive increase in population as a result of Israeli-induced displacement ..."
The Palestinian agricultural sector made great advances in the period 1967-1993, adopting modern techniques ranging from greenhouses, drip-irrigation, and using better seeds. The massive increase in population in the territories and in Israel was a result of large families - the typical Arab family often has more than 8 children. This is not Israeli induced.
"...Israeli restrictions is a major reason for the Gaza Strip's ongoing problems..."
Israeli restrictions were imposed after the Palestinians embarked on a campaign of murderous terrorism against Jewish towns and cities. Up until 2000 there was a free movement of people and goods between Gaza, Israel and the West Bank.
"...the reason Israeli Arabs are hesitant about Lieberman's plan is that they are keenly aware of the destruction wrought by the IDF on territories that are under Palestinian control..."
All Israelis expect that when there will be peace the IDF will have no reason to operate in the Palestinian territories. Israeli Arabs are however keenly aware of the illiberal and authoritarian nature of the Palestinian rulers, and prefer the liberty and civil rights they enjoy in Israel.
How you can repeat this stuff with a straight face , Migreli,I don't know. Living conditions have been miserable in Gaza for Palestinians since the occupation and are a large part of the reason for the "murderous terrorism" you speak of. Largely because:
"Estimates of average population density range from 1,936 people per square kilometer (/km2) to 2,055 people/km2.55 Densities are, again, much higher in the refugee camps; Jabalya camp, where the intifadah originated, has one of the highest population densities in the world at 100,000 people/km2 in extremely poor living conditions.56" (Kelley/Dixon, "Environmental Scarcity and Violent Conflict:The Case of Gaza", 1995)
"The Palestinian agricultural sector made great advances in the period 1967-1993..." Not quite:
"Israel claims that agriculture in Gaza expanded under the occupation. The Israeli claim may be based on a steady increase in the area used for vegetable production: from 300 hectares in 1967 to 4,800 in 1985-86. While the output of all fruits, including citrus, has declined from a 63 percent share of total agricultural value in 1969 to 27 percent in 1990, vegetables have increased from 14 to 50 percent in the same period. Vegetable crops are less water intensive and more salt tolerant, but they are also less productive (particularly in rain-fed areas) and more labor intensive." (Ibid)
Additionally agriculture constituted 34.4 % of Gaza GDP in 1966 and this had fallen to 17.3% by 1987 (Ibid). This was largely down to Israeli-imposed water restrictions and less available productive land being made available to Palestinians.
As for Arabs in Israel preferring "the liberty and civil rights they enjoy in Israel...", you need to remove those rose-coloured glasses:
http://www.countercurrents.org/cook100909A.htm
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