Tuesday, November 15, 2011

No stake in advocating for Israel

Bob from Brockley put up a new post in which he links to other blogs of interest as he simultaneously weaves in his own commentary. As anyone who frequents my place would know, I have the greatest affection and respect for Bob, in spite of the fact that our political positions may be worlds apart. This is why, when I read something like this:

One regular there is Jonathan Hoffman of the Zionist Federation, indefatigable campaigner against anti-Zionist excesses but not always the best advocate for his cause. I was interested to see a debate between Dan Sheldon, the president of the Union of Jewish Students (UJS) and Hoffman. I have no stake in advocating for Israel, their topic, but only in combating antisemitism (a distinction that both the UJS and Zionist Federation like to blur), but I find myself agreeing with most of Sheldon’s sharp criticisms of Hoffman. Here is Jonathan’s response.
My first response is to recoil in shock. And if I'm in a particularly vulnerable mood as I am today, I actually wanted to cry. Can you imagine Bob saying he has no stake in advocating for Palestine?

And why is it, Bob, that you have "no stake in advocating for Israel"? And how easily you blame "Zionist Federation" for blurring the difference between antisemitism and anti-Israel hatred. Can you really claim, in good faith, that the hatred of Israel in which the world indulged today with sadistic relish, has nothing to do with antisemitism?

I will quote someone who should be a hero to Bob, a working class hero and an author, a non-Jew to boot, who seems to have understood exactly where the seam line runs between the hatred of Israel and classical antisemitism and the danger in the insistence of artificially separating the two:

"The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews.

Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russian did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it, Turkey threw out a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese-and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees.

Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis.

Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world.

Other nations when they are defeated survive and recover but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June he would have wiped Israel off the map, and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews.

No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on. There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Negroes are executed in Rhodesia. But when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him.

The Swedes, who are ready to break of diplomatic relations with America because of what we do in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore, and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway.

The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to America and the West in general.

I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us."

For shame.


At 9:47 PM EST, Blogger kellie said...

Actually, I can imagine Bob saying he has no stake in advocating for Palestine.

At 7:50 AM EST, Blogger bob said...

I think that today there is an intimate connection between antisemitism and anti-Israel hatred. The hatred sadistic relish for Israel-hating is often motivated by antisemitism, and always related to it. Being opposed to antisemitism means being, at least some of the time, an anti-anti-Zionist.

However, I have no stake in advocating FOR Israel, any more than I have a stake in advocating for Palestine, the UK or any other country. That does not mean I don't want Israel to exist, or don't defend it against antisemitic attacks, or indeed don't have a special affection for it.

I simply think that advocating for Israel and opposing antisemitism are two seperate jobs. Blurring the two of them is conceptually wrong, but also in some cases strategically counter-productive, as it defuses in advance, for certain audiences, criticisms of anti-Zionist antisemitism.

I might have phrased it badly in my post, but I hope that makes sense. I am sorry to have caught you on a vulnerable day, and am mortified I made you want to cry.

At 11:53 AM EST, Blogger EscapeVelocity said...

Im afraid that Bob lost me when he expressed support for violent Leftists thugs, attacking the EDL, with the purpose not to protect anybody, but to silence the political speech of the EDL.

Unfortunately that is at the heart of most every Leftist.

They likewise see the Israeli Jews as needing a good drubbing, those Nationalist scum.

Who are these indigneous Europeans to assert their interests and culture in their ancient homelands? The fascist pigs!

Reverse colonization good, colonization bad. Got it, pig.

We are in for quite a time these coming decades.

Lets hope the Israeli Jews and the European Ethnic Christians survive and thrive.

Shame on Bob for supporting Violent Leftist Thugs attempts at silencing the indigenous Europeans.

At 12:18 PM EST, Blogger kellie said...

Unsubscribing to comments on this post. Don't need that racist crap in my in-box.

At 12:44 PM EST, Blogger EscapeVelocity said...

Dont want to hear about Bob's support for Violent Fascist Redshirt's silencing the indigenous English people, heh?

Got to keep those ugly savages in line with a good extra-governmental drubbing...then finish it up with a government thought police pre-crime arrest.

What happened to the supposed ethic of working with diverse communities to address the issues they find important? Should the EDL be invited to a inter-governmental panel and given government grants to develop their advocacy plan of action? Need to be inclusive of diversity, right?

It's becoming painfully obvious that some people arent invited to the diversity party. Even the most clueless rubes are onto it, now. Even though most wont express it in public for fear of being punished professionally and economically for expressing them, or worse, being locked up on suspicion of thinking unapproved thoughts.

Exit question...do you enjoy Noga's Jewish "racist crap" in your inbox? Oh, I forgot, some identity politics is not only acceptable but encouraged, other groups, not so much.

But alas...

At 3:37 PM EST, Blogger The Contentious Centrist said...

Escape velocity (NWO) has lost his moral compass. He sees no problem to respond to my complaints about antisemitism with "welcome to my world", not realizing the grotesqueness of such ignorance. He is not welcome on my blog anymore. With "friends" like you, who needs enemies? Go away.

At 6:48 PM EST, Blogger EscapeVelocity said...

Bob on the Left of me and EscapeVelocity on the Right, here I am stuck in the middle with you.

I havent lost my moral compass, but rather am more aware with a deeper understanding of the state of affairs, these days.

It's pretty clear what is happening in Europe for example. You just posted an addendum to that post, which clearly defined the Anti Nationalism of Europe which has both the Jewish State of Israel and the Israel Jews demonized and rejected as well as the English Christians of England.

It's pretty clear that the hostility is originating from the same place and reasoning.

You as a Jew, merely have your own distrust and hostility towards the Euro-Christian Nationalists and prefer to see Anti Semitism as a distinct and special case, and are offended when it is lumped in with other bigotries, (especially Anti European, Anti White, Anti Christian) bigotries.

I still love you Noga. Ive learned alot from you.

You still hold my Euro Christian identity against me, though.

We both attempt and seek universalist ideals.

Defending the EDL, may be beyond the pale, but I will do so every day against the likes of Modernity and Bob who expressed support for the Violent Leftist so called Anti Fascists (in reality totalitarian thugs themselves).

The EDL condemns violence...not Bob and Modernity who ally with those who promote violence against their political opponents to enforce their zeitgeist in the public sphere....(against the EDL). Just as they prevaricate against the Israeli Jews who advocate for their cultural survival and interests and their Jewish State.

Bob has no stake in Israel, I do, and that is the bottom line. Yet you condemn me, whilst professing affection for Bob, even whilst upbraiding him.

Such is the world today...

At 6:58 PM EST, Blogger EscapeVelocity said...

The EDL waves solidarity flags with Israel, because the same hostile forces on the Left and Islam are assaulting their country and peoples.

Not because it winds up the Muslims and Leftwingers (though it certainly does), which is the reason that they stand with Israeli Jews against those same hostile groups.

At 8:01 PM EST, Blogger The Contentious Centrist said...

It makes me very uncomfortable when Israel is played as a pawn in a quarrel in which it has no role. Look at the way you put it: ungrateful Jews failing to appreciate the nobility of the EDL for standing together with some Jews.

It grieves me, NWO, to see you sink further into this kind of baseless self-pitying victimhood. You don't know the beginning of the meaning of being genuinely vulnerable to the forces of evil.

At 1:17 PM EST, Blogger EscapeVelocity said...

Is Bob a Jew?

I was refering to both him an Modernity as Leftists, not highlighting their Jewishness.

Israel and Jews are at the heart of the prophecy and covenent with God.

Israeli Jews arent sinking into victimhood, they are standing up for themselves and their people. Acknowledging those that wish ill upon you and visit it upon your group as they can isnt sinking into self pitying victimhood, but rather acknowledging reality.

The same people that deligitmize Israel as a Jewish State, are doing the same with regards to European Christian nations. This is reality, not self pitying victimhood. I witness on Harry's Place the other day people denying the unique culture of the indigenous English even exists...so there is no reason to respect it's existence. Colonization can procede without a thought to the indigenous English and their culture. Diversity promotion, mass immigration of foreigners, and the promotion of their cultures over the English via Multiculturalism.

This isnt going to end well, I guarantee you that.

But it is the state of affairs these days.

The uppity EDLers are now being arrested for pre-crimes against the peace, when it is the EDL that is attacked by Muslims and Leftist thugs who are breaching the peace. Bob and Modernity are in solidarity with the Leftist street thugs in their violence against the EDL (who are labeled as fascists). This is the reality of the situation.

Just as the violent Palestinian terrorists who attack Israeli Jews are apologized for by the same Left.

At 4:35 PM EST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

anyway, thanks for the eloquence of Eric Hoffer.

Saw this highlighted at RealClearScience just now, so I followed the link and wanted to share despite the bad writing. arsenic poisoning killed our dear Miss Austen?



At 9:45 AM EST, Anonymous TNC said...

Way late on this, as is usual for me these days.

I think the reason Bob does not find any reason to advocate for Israel (or any nation-state) is he is fundamentally internationalist in his politics and to take it a step further is anti-nationalist as well. I find this is a common position for libertarian leftists (socialist, anarchist) to take.

I used to think the same way but have since grown more favorable to nationalism due to my concern about the attempted erosion of national sovereignty. I am not one of those "One World Government" types who sees black helicopters and chemtrails but I do think efforts to supersede national sovereignty are disturbing.

NWO, I don't think you need to worry about the Jews. However, ethnic Germans, French and other Euros have much more to worry about. As one author noted, it will be a supreme irony of history for ethnic Germans to be extinct well before the Jews, given our respective rates of procreation.

At 10:44 AM EST, Blogger bob said...

Actually, I don't think NWO *is* really worried about the Jews. But I don't think you should be feeding his fantasies of racial eclipse either! [insert emoticon to indicate am not taking this too seriously]

At 11:50 AM EST, Blogger The Contentious Centrist said...

I agree with Bob's view of NWO. He is only making cynical us eof Israel Jews' plight in order to advance his own twisted ideas about poor white Christian men being persecuted by atheists and socialists ("joos"). He is a good man. I've known him for years, cyberspacially, but he has closed himself to reason and historical testimony and I can no longer have a rational conversation with him.

Bob: have you seen eM's latest on The Big Picture? TNC, check it out, too, the best piece of writing around, if you ask me. I would be interested in your views, both to the post and my own less than charitable (to the occupists) response in the comments.


At 12:31 PM EST, Anonymous TNC said...

Will def. take a look at the link. Am at work/between classes right now.

The author I was referring to is Bruce Thornton. His recent book is "Decline and Fall: Europe’s Slow-Motion Suicide". I have not read it but heard a few interviews w/ him the past month or so. He seems to be making some of the points raised many times by NWO, albeit in a more measured tone.


THORNTON: The suicide is “slow motion” because the forces eroding European civilization are themselves slow-working, compared to the cataclysmic wars of the 20th century. The demographic crisis — Europe’s failure to reproduce — and the economic problems — sluggish economies burdened with expensive social welfare entitlements — and the immigrant problem — unassimilated, sullen, underemployed but fecund Muslims ripe for jihadist recruitment — will take some time to reach a crisis point. But it is likely to be a question of decades, not centuries.

Lopez: Is it overdramatic to say Europe has “abandoned God and country”?

Thornton: Certainly not, if one is speaking, as I do, of the European political and cultural elite. Refusing to acknowledge, in the European Constitution, the historical fact of Christianity’s role in creating Europe in the first place is pretty dramatic. So are the empty cathedrals across the continent. And the creation of the European Union, which requires the ceding of some national sovereignty, is a dramatic sign of the discrediting of the nation state and patriotism. Time will tell whether these attitudes reach beyond the E.U. elite into the mass of Europeans.

At 10:41 PM EST, Blogger EscapeVelocity said...

The problem isnt that we cant have a rational discussion Noga, it's that you have your interests as woman, Jew, minority, Leftist in European society and they are often hostile to me and mine, at the minimum at odds with me and mine.

You arent a full blown Anti American yahoo, but you still wont acknowledge that me and mine have interests that arent evil. You are caught in the paradigm of the Left (partially because you enjoy benefits from the promotion of the Leftist political agenda. That is why you are a centrist. However the Left is now turning on Jews and Israel in the same manner, and it is and has opened up the eyes of many Jews. Im glad of that, and make no bones about it. You think that, that is all Im about (or mainly), and dismiss my support of Israel (and Jews and their culture). You are tied to your interests, in the face of universalist aspirations, just as I am to mine.

Im pretty sure that my support for Israel as a Jewish State is greater than your support of Anglo Christian Nations as Anglo Christian nations....regardless of Jewish diaspora domestic hostility to me and mine.

You prefer to see me, in a way that allows you to maintain your position, without having to engage the issues. A dismissal of the person, not the argument.

Im glad that Israel in part, has brought many Western Jews to become Neo-Cons, and to drop the unnecessary hostility to Euro-Christian Nations as Euro Christian Nations.

At least many realize that it isnt a sign of hatred or fascism to promote policies which are pro European pro Christian, and in the interests of Europeans and Christians. Of course for many Leftists, any is a sign or racist xenophobic fascist supremacist bigotry, which should be met with Leftwing street thuggery (SEE BOB).

Not only the Jews have a right to have their nation exist.

Ethno State for me, but not for thee, isnt going to cut it. And Im glad that, that is making headway amongst European Diaspora Jewry.

But that isnt the only reason I support Israel. I support Israel for various reasons, which arent secret as they are commonly held on the American Right. Staunch support. That I acknowledge this other side benefit, is without question. That you choose to highlight it as central or primary to my reasoning, says more about you than about me.

I suspect that Bob is more hostile to English Christians and English Christian Naitons, than Israel and Jews.

I still hold out hope for you Noga, though youve relagated me to incapable of having a rational conversation. Bob, who is sympathetic to violence against indigenous English expressing themselves peacefully and democratically in the public sphere, not so much. Can you imagine Bob sympathizing with those who call for violence against Jews in Israel who are concerned about the preservation and interests of Jews in Israel, human rights abuses against women and homosexuals, and assaults upon freedom of speech as he has the EDL expressing themselves in England on English streets?

At 11:16 AM EST, Blogger EscapeVelocity said...

Imagine Bob supporting Leftwing street thuggery against indigenous Africans or Latin Americans who are taking to the streets peacefully to protest their colonization, advocating their interests as they see them, and specifically against human rights abuse of women and homosexuals, and in support of Israel.

Then you can get a sense of the ugliness of it, and the Anti European bigotry that underlies that support.

At 3:34 PM EST, Blogger EscapeVelocity said...

“If I am not for myself, who will be for me?

If I am only for myself, what am I?

And, if not now, when?” –Hillel


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